The following edited transcript of an interview with a witness “Tim” took place in 2008. His sighting was close to Lithgow NSW in 1985. The interviewer was Paul C.


Paul:Oh, hi, is that Tim?


Paul:Oh, g’day, Tim. It’s Paul here.

Tim:How are you, mate?

Paul:Oh, good thanks. Hey, thanks very much for dropping … for dropping that report to us. That … that’s a really interesting story and, would you believe, it’s only about … it’s got to be a … just a couple of kilometres on from one of my favourite trout-fishing spots. I go down to [location] a lot …


Paul:… which I think is just around the corner from [location Near Lithgow].

Tim:Yes, I know the area very well.

Paul:So do you … have you got a couple of minutes? ‘Cause I’d like to just, I guess, talk through your … your experience and …


Paul:Can I ask how old you are?

Tim:I’m 41.

Paul:Okay. And the … and the sighting itself took place when?


Paul:And just, I guess, if … if it’s cool, if you just take … take … take me through in your own words what happened in sort of what you saw and what you experienced, and then I might just go in and ask kind of some more specific questions.

Tim:Sure. Sure. We were in the … we were in the [location].

Paul:You were hunting, is that right?

Tim:Yeah. Yeah. Hunting for … for pigs. And we were in a … in a valley, and where it was there was a … like a little tributary there. And we were off from that and we were walking in a … in a line … in a line, my brother and me. And we were probably about 12 metres apart in eyesight.

Paul:He … he was … he was still kind of visible to you?

Tim:Yeah. Yeah, he didn’t see him. He didn’t see, but … and the trees would’ve been just up to my lower chest.

Paul:Oh, okay. So it was … it was … it wasn’t sort of big, tall trees there?

Tim:No, no, it was … it was open scrub. The scrub was very thick. And all … all I was doing, I was just following a … a … a track made by the animals. You know what I mean? Like you didn’t need a machete or anything.


Tim:And then next … next minute, just … basically six foot in front of me, he had his back turned to me, and I saw him for a good … a good 15 to 30 seconds.

Paul:That’s a long time.

Tim:Yeah. Yeah. And, mate, honestly I … I’d looked down at my rifle … I wasn’t going to shoot him but I looked down at the rifle, I had a high-powered rifle, and I looked at him and I said if I was to … if I was to shoot this thing I … I wouldn’t have … it wouldn’t have mattered because he was [unclear – background noise] but that’s a bigger [unclear – force ?] to me. You … you know what …

Paul:So …

Tim:… I mean?

Paul:So you … you came up … yeah. So keep … I guess keep going through, you came upon it and sort of what happened after that? What did it do and what did you do?

Tim:Well, I … I just looked at him. I didn’t … I didn’t raise my rifle or anything, I thought this … this is too good to be true. And I could see the image of him, the hair, the pigment of his skin, his earlobes, the … I just looked at everything of what I could saw and … and he just had his back to me and he was just taking himself off into the bush. And he was running downhill. We were walking downhill and the wind was towards him, so I … I must’ve surprised him ‘cause we were very … when we … when we go hunting we don’t … I might take five bullets with me and come back with five bullets. It’s just … we don’t go out there and just shoot anything that we see. And so we were really … really trying to be careful where we walk and, yeah, he was just in front of me. I can tell you what he looked like if you like.

Paul:Well, that’d be great, but how about we … can I ask some questions? I mean, I’ll … I’ll start from the beginning, I guess. So it was ’85. I think you put the date on the report, didn’t you? Or did you put the exact date or do you … or … or sort of a rough? You … did you know what month it was?

Tim:It was spring … no, I can’t remember exactly what month it was now.

Paul:But it was sort of spring-ish?

Tim:Yeah. Yeah.

Paul:And … and what time of the day did you see it?

Tim:It was in the morning because the … the ground was … it was not hot, like it wasn’t a hot day. It was just nice.

Paul:And you were out shooting with your brother. And what’s your brother’s name?


Paul:Okay. Now, you were … you were out hunting. How long had you been out hunting before you came upon this thing?

Tim:Probably three quarters of an hour. Yeah. Like that’s … that’s normal for us. We would probably walk for about two to three hours.

Paul:Yeah. And, what, you could see a fair distance in that area or was it closed-off a bit? You know, jungle-ey or?

Tim:No, there was … there was no tall trees, it was just … it was just that lowlying scrub.

Paul:Which … so you say you just came upon the thing, so this thing must’ve been down below the level of the scrub and then kind of popped up?

Tim:Yeah. Yeah, ‘cause … ‘cause what … what happened was I was looking down at the valley and then I looked straight ahead all of a sudden and there it was.

Paul:So he must’ve been kind of either lying or … or ducked down …

Tim:I …

Paul:… a bit.

Tim:… I … I presume so.

Paul:Now, were you heading sort of … you were heading down a slope at this time? Or just across, level?

Tim:The gradient was very … very small gradient, like the hill was a … it was a … it was going downhill but it wasn’t downhill that you had to hang onto a rope or anything like that. It was just a nice, easy walk.

Paul:Just gentle slope. So …


Paul:And … and … but you don’t remember this thing popping up, but it’s just that you turned and it was there, like you just suddenly noticed it or?

Tim:It was … it was just … it was just there. I …

Paul:And …

Tim:… saw him in full [unclear – too far from mic].

Paul:Okay. So you get the surprise seeing this thing from the back, and you said you were, what, six feet away from it?

Tim:Yeah. Yeah. I could’ve … I could’ve touched it, but I was … I was scared. But … but … but I wasn’t scared that it … it was going to harm me because I … I could see him, he had his back turned … turned to me and he had … he had other agenda. And …

Paul:Now, when it stood up did it … stood up and just … did it move or did it stay still? You know, when you first noticed it was it …

Tim:It … it stood still for probably five seconds.

Paul:And then it started to move away?

Tim:And then it started to move away …

Paul:And it moved away direct …

Tim:… [unclear – overtalking].

Paul:… direct from you or … or sort of sideways or?

Tim:No, direct. Not across.

Paul:Okay. Now, as you are seeing it standing there for that few seconds, so you just stood there with your rifle, did you bring your rifle up or did you just hold it in front of you?

Tim:No, I just … I just had it with the nozzle pointing at the ground. I was just too busy looking at … looking at him. I … I wanted to see him.

Paul:When you first saw it what did you think you were looking at?

Tim:I couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t believe what I saw. I … I … I was gobsmacked, to be truthful.

Paul:(Chuckling) I’m not surprised.

Tim:And like you … you … you know it’s … you hear these stories about all these things, and seeing is believing to me and, yeah … yeah, I saw it and …

Paul:Okay. So it’s in front of you. I guess … so it was … I presume you’re saying it was sort of … how … how tall was the thing?

Tim:He would’ve been seven foot tall and four foot across the shoulders.

Paul:So how big … how tall are you?

Tim:I’m six foot three.

Paul:And this thing was seven inches bigger than you?

Tim:Yeah, he was … he was tall. He was quite tall.

Paul:And you’re saying four foot across the shoulders?

Tim:Yeah. Yeah.

Paul:That’s huge.

Tim:I … yeah. I weigh … I weigh 97 kilos, and I estimated him to weigh 300 kilos. He … he would’ve been three of me in body mass.

Paul:Now, when you were looking at it was it a slender thing or a kind of a solid thing? Do you know what I mean? Was it built long and thin or was it?

Tim:No, it was solid. It was … it was like a … like a front-rower.

Paul:And was it … was it the same width all the way down or was it bigger at the top or smaller at the hips or, you know, did it … did it taper or was it just?

Tim:I didn’t see his … his lower … his … his bum or anything like that, I just saw some of his lower back to his shoulders, and it was just all in proportion. The only thing that was out of proportion was his head.

Paul:In what way?

Tim:Well, it … it looked like you stuck an egg on top of a soccer ball. Do you know what I mean?

Paul:Like a little head with big shoulders?

Tim:Yeah. Yeah. And he had no neck. There was no neck, it was just like a dome shape like an egg shape, and the hair would’ve been about three inches long but it wasn’t like a dog’s … it was like dogs’ hair but it was sporadic. It wasn’t thick. And I could see the skin, the pigment of his tissue.

Paul:From the back?

Tim:And the … all over. All over. His head, his ears, his back.

Paul:Now, when … when you say you could see the skin, so you could actually see through the … the hair in a way.

Tim:Yeah. Yeah, I could see his pigment on the … in his … in his flesh.

PaulAnd what colour was that?

Tim:It was while like mine but he went … his fur was ginger. You know how you … you get the … these children or whatever, they’re red-headed and they’ve got those big blotchy-like freckles?


Tim:Not … not little freckles but the big … big blotchy.


Tim:It was like that on his skin.

Paul:Now … so you … so the colour of the … was the colour the same all over the animal?


Paul:And you’re saying it was like a reddish-brown, is that what you’re saying? Or what colour was it?

Tim:Yeah. Yeah, it was … it was like a … a reddish-brown, yeah.

Paul:Was it a dark-ish or … you’re saying kind of light or dark-ish?

Tim:No, it was dark. Ginger.


Tim:A redhead, yeah.

Paul:And … and was the hair smooth or shaggy?

Tim:What … what do you mean saying shaggy?

Paul:Well, was it smooth sort of like … you know, like a dog, kind of consistent and smooth on the surface as it came down his body? Or was it shaggy, a bit like a goat?

Tim:Oh, no. No, it was … it was just straight. Straight hair.

Paul:And was it … you said about three inches long, the hair.

Tim:Yeah. Yeah.

Paul:And looking from the back, did you see arms?

Tim:Saw his arms, but not his fingers. And they … they were [unclear – just flesh ?]. And his ears, he had funny ears. He didn’t have earlobes, it was just rounded off.

Paul:Really? They … you didn’t see lobes. But you … so the … the ears came out from under the hair or … or they were covered in hair?

Tim:Yeah. No, they came out from the hair. Have you … have you ever heard of the expression convict ears?


Tim:Convict ears were … they’ve got no earlobes. It was … it was a terminology that they used, I don’t know why. And … yeah, so he … he didn’t have cauliflower ears or anything like that, they were just … just rounded ears with no overhang muscle.

Paul:Now, okay, was it standing up straight or was it leaning or what … what was it’s kind of …


Paul:… posture?

Tim:He was … he was straight. He was vertical. He wasn’t hunchback, he wasn’t leaned over or anything.

Paul:Okay. So he comes up, stands still for five seconds as you said, what happened after that? What did the animal do?

Tim:Then he … he started running. Like not running full speed, he just … he … he was … he … he noticed I was there and then he just … he started to … to move.

Paul:Wait a second. You said he noticed you were there, did he look at you?

Tim:No, he didn’t look at me but he knew that there was something there. There was … he knew that there was a threat there, I guess, and he just took off. He didn’t walk, but every time he walked he … he … every step he took it was a (makes grunting noise) uh, uh, uh, uh, like that.

Paul:He made a sound.

Tim:A big … yeah, like that, like a grunting noise. Every step that he took, which you could … you could hear the footprint hit the earth and then he would go (makes grunting noise) uh, uh, like you know when you … you’re trying to get a breath of air?


Tim:Yeah, it was … I … I … yeah.

Paul:So …

Tim:That’s about it.

Paul:Okay. And … and how long did you have it in view as it took off?

Tim:Right from … from the point … from the point of seeing him would’ve been 20 seconds to 30 seconds.

Paul:And how did he disappear? Did he go into heavier timber or … or … or just … how did he disappear?

Tim:He just … he just disappeared in … into thicker … it wasn’t the heavy timber, it was just low-lying scrub, and I lost … I was … I … I was … I could’ve ran after it but I was just overwhelmed by the fact of what I saw. Like I … I just stood still and I’m thinking did I see what I saw? Cause I … was that true? And then by the time I came to the realisation it was too late, the … it was … you know what I mean? It was …

Paul:Yeah, yeah. No, no, I fully understand. Now, did you brother see it?

Tim:No. No. I never told him about it.


Tim:[Unclear – too far from mic].

Paul:You must’ve been busting to tell him.

Tim:I was, but my brother is one of these people that would’ve been looking for it to shoot it, I think.

Paul:Did you ever tell anybody about it?

Tim:No. No. Haven’t said nothing to no-one.

Paul:Wow. That must’ve been a secret keeping … (chuckling) you’re keeping inside for a hell of a long time.

Tim:Yeah. Yeah. I … actually I talked to my missus about it yesterday. Because when I was home there last we were telling dad stories by the campfire to my … to the boys, my eight-year old boy, and I told him about this experience and … and then my missus said did you really see that? And I said yeah, yeah. And then she didn’t believe me, so I said to her that I sent an email off because I wanted to express what I felt … saw and felt … felt to someone. And she … that was the day, and she said why are you doing that? And I said I don’t know why, it just feels that this is the right time sort of.

Paul:I tell you, it’s a good story. Like, you know, a lot of what you’ve said just … just connects with everything else I’ve heard. Can I … I want to throw a couple more questions at you. When you looked at the back could you see muscles and could you see to … how like … was it muscly or just flab like a … like a … like a person’s back or was it different? Hard to tell if you …

Tim:Well, it … it wasn’t cut, it wasn’t defined, you know, like … like a … like an aerobic instructor or anything like that. It was just a solid … you could see that there was muscle there.

Paul:And … and the hair on the head … so when you look at it from the back it just looked like it had no neck, just that head was just stuck on the top there.

Tim:Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know how he … how he would turn around. He … he would’ve had to probably turn his whole waist and everything to see something.

Paul:And when it ran off did it run like a person runs or was it different or … or the same or?

Tim:He ran man-like. He … he ran like a … he ran like a man. He didn’t … he didn’t sway side to side like … like his arms were in front and … like an ape or whatever. He … he swam … he ran, sorry, he ran front forward with hands by his sides like … like …

Paul:And …

Tim:… like a … like a man, yeah.

Paul:Did you … did you smell anything?

Tim:No. That was another thing, because I had the breeze coming in front of us and couldn’t smell him. Like I had a look at him and he looked slightly as though you could smell the … I didn’t smell anything about him.

Paul:Did you … later did you see any evidence that he’d been there? Did you see any footprints or anything like that or tracks?

Tim:I … I didn’t … I didn’t look because what I saw was … I …

Paul:What you saw.

Tim:That was it, yeah.

Paul:(Chuckling) That was enough.

Tim:The fact that … I didn’t need to (chuckling) … I didn’t need to see a footprint.

Paul:Now, when it ran was its arms up pumping like a kind of human runner or was it down by its side?

Tim:Its … sorry? I beg your pardon?

Paul:So when … when it was running did … you said it ran like a person, but did it have its kind of arms and hands up high or down just …


Paul:… by its side?

Tim:They were down by its sides. They weren’t … they weren’t … his hands weren’t up near his chest.

Paul:Yeah, yeah.

Tim:Down by his side. So …

Paul:And so when it was running you were just standing there watching it?

Tim:Yeah. Yeah. I … I had a very, very good look at it. Very good. If I … if I was an artist I could draw it for you.

Paul:Could you give it a try? Even just a silhouette would be interesting, you know what I mean? Like the … the shape and the relationship of the head to …

Tim:My …

Paul:… the body.

Tim:My eight … my eight-year old can draw (chuckling) better than me.

Paul:(Chuckling) Oh, gosh.


Paul:Yeah, interesting. Very interesting story. [Tape cuts off].

End of recording